How to Scale as a CEO – Mindset, Strategy & Leadership Shifts, with Joe Leech, CEO Coach

Desi Velikova

Did you know that onDesi (00:03.147) Mr. Joe, welcome to Seekers. Who are you?

MrJoe (00:04.304) Good to be here. So I am Mr. Joe. So I am a coach to CEOs. I work with CEOs from at all stages really from early stage startup founders through to tech companies that growing really fast through to enterprise career CEOs of larger businesses.

Desi (00:23.285) Awesome. And what exactly do you do with those CEOs and why is it important?

MrJoe (00:29.104) That's a really good question. So I do lots of things with them really. So a lot of what I do with those CEOs who are founders at the kind of early stages of their career, maybe they're a first time CEO, is we kind of, I have a program called from.

instinct to mastery and that's really helping them with the mindset and skill sets that they need to be a CEO really because they're instinctually very good at running a business. I kind of help by giving them a framework to work with their senior leadership team, to work with their product teams, to work with the board of directors, their investors, their employees to develop their strategy. I really help them with the framework that encompasses a new skill set and a new mindset to really be a successful

leader and to move from being a founder into being a CEO leader.

Desi (01:14.307) Awesome, interesting. from your experience so far, work with so many leaders in tech and in kind of wider industries, what are the most common challenges most CEOs encounter?

MrJoe (01:27.802) Well, I always sort of say that all business challenges are human challenges. So it's always the people elements of what.

the organisation or of the situation that they're in. So typically often I get brought in at a moment of truth. So maybe they are struggling to enact a strategy or they've got a challenge with their board of directors or their C-suite isn't performing well or there's a particular challenge that they're facing and their usual skill set or playbook isn't working for them. And so typically that's a human challenge. I find that mostly with founders because they're pretty good at building and developing products and strategy. It's the human element they often trip up on. So a lot of what I do is really

helping them to understand have they got the right people in the right seats in their organisation and really are they have they got the skills the skill set to be a leader to be a manager versus a the skill set of being a founder and a visionary is very different from being a leader and a manager and a CEO so I kind of help them not only with their skill set but any mindset shifts they need to make to be working better in essence with the people that are around them.

Desi (02:31.747) So it's a little bit like therapy for CEOs and leaders.

MrJoe (02:35.792) I mean, it can be like that. I kind of joke that I save as many marriages as I do businesses, but the reality is, is if, you know, if you're working at your best, and I kind of look at my coaching almost in two ways. So for lot of the people that I work with, they have...

kind of classic what we call the outer games, that's their strategy, the way they talk and appear in public, in meetings, the way that they set their vision, the way they plan tactics, the way that they use their time, that's what we call the outer game. And you'll find a lot of resources on the outer game, know, lot of productivity and leadership and...

visionary and strategy, you know, the kind of the way that they turn up. But equally, we spend as much time on what we call the inner game, which is really themselves internally, what are their capabilities, their values, their beliefs that kind of all wrapped up into what is their identity. And sometimes they have to reinvent themselves, whole identity to be better at the outer game by getting better at the inner game. a lot of the work that we do yet is on themselves. But the reality is a way a lot of that is seen in the results that come from that are in the outer

game in terms of business performance or leadership or anything that really is around business results.

Desi (03:47.395) Interesting. So let's talk a little bit more about this mastering the inner game that I've heard you saying on other talks and podcasts that I find very interesting. So when you say mastering the inner game, is it this almost like changing who they are as people or is it more about their values and how they look at things or is it more about who they project they are? So what exactly transformation we see in people when they start working in this?

in this kind of mastering the inner game.

MrJoe (04:18.158) Yeah, I mean, it is all related to identity. So often what you see, over the course of our life, we have a number of things that make up our identity. And our identity can come from the capabilities and the things that we can do, right? Maybe that's...

Desi (04:26.979) Mm.

MrJoe (04:33.168) coding or maybe that's spreadsheets or business or sales. We have a variety of capabilities or things that we can do. We also have a number of values that we inherit, right? So values are things like, you know, I always put people first, family first over business first, you know, political values, religious values, values that are kind of set from your parents and from your social situation that are you.

And then we have beliefs, so things like, you if I work long hours, I can get great results, or if I hustle, I will win, or if I put enough effort in, I'll eventually get there, or I can steamroll on my way to a great solution, or there's lots of beliefs about the way you operate that are also there. And all of these things then make up that person's identity. And what you can see with a leader is, and some of the symptoms that I see initially, or people around this leader might see, are when they react.

Desi (05:00.259) Mm.

Desi (05:12.419) Hmm.

MrJoe (05:24.88) to perhaps their capabilities not being as great as they were or their values being questioned or their beliefs being challenged. And they take that as a personal thing, right? And then they react, right? We have something called the, a part of our brain called the amygdala which controls our fight or flight responses. And a third one called fawn. And what you can see is when your identity is challenged, you go into this mode of amygdala whiplash or hijack where you take over and you look to fight.

What are you saying? You get quite angry about something or you run away and ignore it or you fawn, which is where you say, I'm really sorry. You apologize. You're really nice to somebody. So lot of the symptoms that you see when somebody appears to be under stress is this amygdala hijack. And that's often related to a questioning of their inner, their identity. And that can come from the point of, for example, maybe the hustle isn't working for you. You're working 60 hours a week, but you're not seeing the results. Maybe you're

Desi (06:20.077) Right.

MrJoe (06:20.6) you're trying to coerce your team to work harder and push harder all the time, right? We all worked just a bit harder, we get there, that's one of your beliefs that that's the way it's gonna work. And that isn't working for you. When somebody questions that approach you've got, you react in quite an emotional manner. And so typically when people start working with me, is they noticing this in themselves? Why am I reacting like that?

Typically, it's because your identity is under attack as you see it, because your beliefs and values are being questioned, or your capabilities are like, maybe you're not the best coder in the world, maybe you aren't the greatest at spreadsheets, maybe you aren't the greatest at sales, that's okay. There's many, many, many things that you are great at, but the reality is if you feel you're being questioned, then you lash out and you have that emotional reaction. And that's normally a typical sign that you're not playing the right in a game.

Desi (07:07.937) How important is it for the CEO's personal values, what you're saying, who they are as a person to align with the company's culture and the company's values they're trying to build and project, especially for smaller startups and early stage founders? I suppose that almost needs to be the same thing, isn't it?

MrJoe (07:29.253) Yeah, mean, you're absolutely right. Nearly on they are because as a leader, you can be when there's five or 10 or 20 of you. It's very easy for your values to be the same cultural values as the business because you're a small unit. spending a lot of time together. There's a lot of low level contacts that everybody has with you. And so they understand your values just by being in the same place as you a lot of the time.

Desi (07:50.039) Mm.

MrJoe (07:50.222) As the organization grows, that's when the disconnect can come because again, more people create more values come into the business and the culture can start to shift away from perhaps that of the founder. Now, either the founder can change or the business can change, but when the two start to diverge, that's when there's challenges for both sides of the business. So you're an employee coming into a business and you're like, every time you meet the founder, you come away from that feeling like, this doesn't feel like the business that I joined.

And equally as a founder, can feel your business is kind of slipping away from you to a certain extent or the people you're hiring are not the right people. But you can't put your finger on it. Maybe they're good at the jobs they do. Again, we talk a lot about, there's a book called Traction by Gina Wickman and in that book he talks about...

right person, right seat. You can have the right person in an organisation who's a good cultural fit, they have the same values as you, but they may be in the wrong seat, right? They haven't got the skills to do that. Equally, you could have an amazing programmer or an amazing salesperson who's great, sat in the right seat, but they may not be the right person for that job because culturally they're not a good fit. So you need to split those two things out and that's...

harder when you're a founder and a leader away from recruitment, away from the team, for you to be able to control and have work on. at some point you need to be very intentional about how you set up the culture. It needs to move away from, it's obvious, which is often what a lot of early stage founders say was obvious what the culture is, because you we live it and breathe it all the time, is when the organization grows you need to be much more intentional about setting that out, codifying it, writing it down, interviewing for it and talking a lot about culture.

So for example, a lot of the enterprise CEOs that I work with spend probably a vast amount of their time on culture, the way people do their work rather than specific decisions that are all around the way people operate, the way that they do things, really the culture of the organization that becomes their primary focus as the business grows a lot larger because that's really how you dramatically affect your leadership style as you are.

MrJoe (09:47.652) projecting culture onto the organization rather than in essence telling people what to do or how to do it, which is what you do as an early stage founder. And that takes a profound shift in an individual to move from one mode of operation, basically having all the right answers and knowing what to do, early stage founder, to being a leader where you are setting the cultural norms of the organization. You're asking more questions and you're giving answers. As you said earlier on, you really do have to reinvent yourself at a number of stages as your organization grows.

because you need to keep in step with what your organization needs.

Desi (10:19.907) So it's this kind of process of...

adaptation and know when exactly it's time to change and shift your style. So let's talk a little bit more about the founder CEO specifically because as we know they face like a whole different set of challenges compared to an enterprise CEO like a person leading a large organization. I heard you share an interesting anecdote about how you're ready to let your daughter get wet in the rain so she can learn to not forget her umbrella.

but you would never let her jump in front of a bus for her to learn road safety and that's like...

It's so logical, right? It makes so much sense. And what you're referring to that many early stage founders and CEOs, they often treat each problem as if it was a bus problem. They're trying to prevent their team from like a catastrophic challenge or something catastrophic is going to happen in the organization if they don't step in.

I suppose that's the most difficult part for many early stage founders is to learn when they should back off a little bit and let their team deal with the challenges and learn by their mistakes and also just get them a little bit wet in the rain. So how do we know when is the moment for us to start making this transition and stepping back a little bit?

MrJoe (11:47.524) you can look at symptoms. So symptoms are things like, you know, general employee dissatisfaction. Nobody likes to be micromanaged. If you're a founder CEO, would you like to be micromanaged? Well, of course not. And so you often don't see it as micromanaging when you're in that position of doing it. You see it as being, you say things to yourself like, well, if I wasn't here, this would never happen. Or I just need to clone myself to make this better. Or...

when you've got challenges with quality control or people just don't care as much about the detail as I do, you find yourself saying these phrases. Now they're all true, okay, and the challenge you have to do is to change your leadership style to suit the size of the business you are. So if you are five people and you're working on your MVP or your early stage product, absolutely, you can be all over the detail. As the business grows, you can't, and you at that point become a bottleneck. Now logically, you can see that, you know that you're becoming that.

That doesn't mean you're going to let go and stop becoming that bottleneck. So the first part of it is really acknowledging the fact that you cannot do everything. And you may feel that you can do everything better than everybody. And that's maybe the culture you've created in the organization right now, but you need to let go of that. So I talk about it like you're driving a, you know, you're driving a car and your hands are tightly gripped on the wheel and your knuckles are white. And you're so scared that if you let go that this car is going to crash or go into a ditch. Part of the work we have to do is slowly

changing that way that you see things, right? Slowly taking your hand off the wheel so somebody else can take over. And it's not suddenly something you can do overnight. The first thing you want to have to do is to change the way, right? You're realising that this is holding you back and holding your organisation back. That realisation has to come that I've got to step away from this because I'm becoming a bottleneck. We're not moving as fast as we could because everybody needs to run things past me. First thing is acknowledgement. And then bit by bit you need to slowly give things away.

And part of that, exercise that I do, and actually I'll give this away to, I'm free to, to listen to the podcast. I have a template for helping understand two things in your life. It's to list the things that energise you, that get you really excited as a leader or as a human being generally. List of all the things that drain you as a leader or as a human being, right? You create a big list. These are people, situations, work that you want to do.

MrJoe (14:05.52) And typically in getting a leader to write down or anybody to write down the things that energise them and the things that drain them, you get an idea of what you can give up early on as a leader, right? So you can start to pull away from the things that drain you and give those to some other people. And that's how you build up that muscle of delegation. Because again, when you're at an early stage startup, you're used to doing everything all the time.

The reality is you have to start delegating and the best thing to give up first of all is the stuff that doesn't fill your heart full of joy, the stuff that drains you of energy. You give that away first and then you get to a point of view of the things that energise you. And in that list, there's going to be some things that have made you great so far. Maybe that is looking at the detail of the product. Maybe that is setting the vision. I'm not sure what that stuff is that energises you, but you focus much more upon that.

and you're very intentional about the work that you do. So maybe you do have a great gift for the vision of the product and the detail associated with that product. Fine, right? Use that and be intentional about how you do that rather than feeling like you have to do all the work, intentionally decide how you want to give input onto that area that really energises you, again, so that your team are energised by you being there as well. But the best place to start is to list the things that energise you and drain you.

delegate the things that drain you, focus on the things that energise you, and focus on how you work on those in a very intentional way. As I said, I've got some resource that people can email me about that can help you figure out what energises you and what drains you.

Desi (15:27.309) That's also fantastic compass and kind of it could be almost like guidelines who and what kind of people you should be hiring because the hiring mistakes are probably the biggest mistakes and early stage CEO would potentially do. From my experience the opportunity cost here is much much bigger than the financial implications because spending six months with somebody who is not right for the road for your team or

for like what I've proposed to hire them for would.

have like a catastrophic problem back on the trajectory of the company because sometimes these six months are so important for the early stages of the business. And what I see is many founders, either have people who are too senior to themselves, almost like a mirror of themselves, or they bring somebody on board who is, they just really imply unrealistic expectations on them. So is that, you know, the way to go about hiring people who should our first hires be?

finding people to execute and really help us with the things that drain us.

MrJoe (16:38.232) definitely and I think what you need to realise is there's lots of ways of doing it, lots of perceived wisdom, received wisdom about how you hire.

Desi (16:45.059) Mm.

MrJoe (16:46.512) If you've got that list of what energises you and what drains you, you've immediately got a list of the things you should hire for first. That list is going to be different for everybody. Maybe you're a founder who really loves the product side of it, then don't hire somebody in product too early. That's not going to work because that's the bit you really have got the energy for, hire somebody in finance. If you're a founder who really loves the sales, distribution, marketing, product growth side of it, why are you hiring anybody there if that's your skill set? Hire somebody that complements you somewhere else.

Number one is knowing that it's different. The path is different for every founder and every leader has got a different style. There's no one way of doing it. A lot of what I do with the founders I work with is uncovering their unique style of leadership. And that then gives you an insight as to who you should hire and how you should hire. I mentioned earlier on this difference between a visionary and integrator. The way to think about that is there's really two sets of roles in any business. You think about it like running a train or a railroad. There's the person that lays the tracks, right? They're laying the tracks on a new route.

Some are going somewhere exciting. This is brand new ground they're creating. They're laying the tracks. They're going somewhere brand new. And then you've got somebody equally who's great at running trains, right? They can run trains on time, on budget. They can make sure that everything's working in terms of the train. It's got regular maintenance. It's all those sorts of things. You can need to figure out which one of those two you are. Are you a laying the tracks kind of person? Are you a running the trains kind of person? And you need to hire the other one. Typically most...

founders are laying the tracks on people. They are visionaries. They love the visionary. They love the big stuff. They love the detail. They just don't know that messy middle bit of implementation. The first thing you do is you hire somebody who's great at implementing that stuff, that messy middle area. That could be a COO. That could be a product person. That could be a tech, whatever it is, you need to figure out what that messy middle is in terms of somebody who can take your vision and execute upon that and which part of that you mean. So it's really understanding which of those two types of leaders you are can help you understand who you need to hire.

and going forward in any organization.

MrJoe (18:43.856) As you mentioned there, one of the warning signs is hiring too many people like you. You don't want a company full of visionaries because you'll get nothing done. You don't want a company full of integrators who just, you know, a greater process and running things when you've got no idea actually what they're building or why they're building it. You need a mixture of both of those two sets of people to really complement each other. So as you said, one of the biggest mistakes is hiring people too much like you. And one of the things is also hiring somebody who doesn't compliment you particularly well in the organization, who's maybe a bit too much like you.

are too different from you and you don't really work together.

Desi (19:17.624) And then the problem you had is actually getting bigger and bigger and bigger and the same problems stay. You don't solve the problems that you had when you had people who are like yourself.

MrJoe (19:26.756) Yeah, I mean, I have a friend who works in product management and he always sort of says, gosh, nobody wants to be the first product management hire, but I love being the second one.

Desi (19:36.325) Yeah.

MrJoe (19:37.092) I love to be the second first product manager that they hire because the first one generally goes a bit wrong and there's nothing wrong with these things going wrong. Again, if you're a founder, you probably don't have a huge amount of hiring or management experience, right? You've not done that before. Or if you have done, it's under a structure that's come from an organization you've worked with before. You're going to get it a bit wrong. And I think to your point,

you've got to understand pretty early on if this person's right or they're not right and accept the mistakes and move on. So one of the big challenges I also see when the business grows maybe above 50 or 100 people is the opposite is where they keep people too long. So people who've been really integral in that kind of business that's 10 to 20 people, maybe they're extremely great individual contributors who are amazing at product growth or marketing or sales or tech.

And they're then being asked to transition into leadership of a team in that area. And they're not great at the leadership side of it. And often people keep hold of people who've been great for them before and put them into a role that they're not comfortable in and expect them to be really, really good. So at some point you have to look at the leadership at the layer beneath you within an organization and higher for leadership versus higher for skillset. that's a big shift that often a lot of businesses...

miss when they hit kind of 100 people and it takes them six months to a year to overcome that challenge to really get a senior set of leadership who are great leading and building and expanding the organization rather than being experts in their respective fields.

Desi (21:04.887) That's such an interesting point that you mentioned where you have your core team, maybe some of the team members, they're almost like your co-founders. They've been with you since the beginning. And then as the business grows, you keep promoting the same people simply on the basis you trust them. You know, they will be by your side, whatever happens. But then they might not be the right person for this particular role. How do you get yourself out of this situation?

ever find yourself in this situation because I can imagine this happens with many people. They keep promoting the person they trust but for one or another reason they actually see they're not right for this role but they don't want to lose them by demoting them.

MrJoe (21:49.872) Yeah, and it's back to that concept of right person, right seat. So those people are absolutely right person for the organisation, they're just not in the right seat. And you have to negotiate that part of it really and understand what you want to do and have the open and honest, frank conversation. So what often what I find is I'll ask people to score their C-suite team, right? Give me your C-suite team, right? Tell me.

who is a 10 out of 10, like who are eight, nine, 10 out of 10, they're really extraordinary people who are fantastic. 10 with the people who are like, you know, five or below. And that's really easy, because then you know who to keep and who to let go. The challenge you have is the people who are sort of six or seven out of 10, who are okay at what they do. They're not exceptional, they're not awful. They're awful, they'd go. If they're exceptional, right, you'd rave about it.

And the real weakness you find in senior leadership, and this is actually true from businesses that are 200 people up to 200,000 people, is senior leadership, people who are really only six to seven out of 10 in terms of skill set. Maybe they can be coached and improved to be higher, but the reality is there's those six or seven. So they're not awful enough to move them on and they're not amazing enough. They just sit at that kind of average ground and average area.

they are the hardest situations to deal with, especially like you say, if you've grown up with them and you trust these people, there's an emotional element to it as well. You need at some point to decide.

and make that obvious, make that choice. Yeah, this person is a seven out of 10. I've done everything I can to help improve them, but it's time for us to end this relationship. And that person needs to either move on to another role, they're the right person in the organization, find the right seat for them, or they need to move out of the organization and you need to hire somebody who is going to be a nine or a 10 out of 10. And that's easier to do when your business grows because you know what average looks like, and then you can start to understand what great looks like. But yeah, it's a real challenge for most leaders. That business size of about hundreds to about

MrJoe (23:42.562) 500 people of just having kind of above slightly above average leadership but not exceptional leadership.

Desi (23:50.563) You have to start making the hard choices at some point, right?

MrJoe (23:54.676) Absolutely, you do right. the big thing that the overall message to this stuff for any CEO is if you want to make a change in the world, you need to make change in yourself. If you want to change the world, you've got to change yourself to keep up with that. And the same has got to be true the organization that you're building. Everything has to change. And that's not just skill set. That's also mindset. If you're not doing both of those two things at the same time, you're not going to change the world. You look at the great leaders that we look at now and you can see how they've grown over time.

to be better and better at what they do. And equally, you can absolutely see when they've hit their maximum, where they have stopped growing and start to become different in the way that that works. know, classic one is Elon Musk, right? He stopped growing in terms of his leadership stuff and he's, you know, he's gone in kind of lots of crazy directions because of that. You see other leaders who started to grow, like Mark Zuckerberg, who absolutely hit a plateau and then realized he had to change and has changed and has kind of come through a resurgence in that. Leaders need to change. If you want to change the world, you've got to change yourself.

Desi (24:54.549) In your view, what are the defining traits of a successful, happy CEO, if such a thing existed, of course? Is there like a perfect formula? Have you seen any patterns of CEOs who successfully scale themselves alongside their companies?

MrJoe (25:12.484) definitely I can share some traits with you absolutely. I just mentioned that one about constantly looking to change themselves, realising there's always ways to improve how they work and how they turn up in the world. That's number one really, if you're not willing to change yourself, how can you change the world, right? It's not going to happen. The second one really is...

is letting go of being right. So early on as a founder, you are, have got this amazing vision and, you everybody's telling you you're crazy or your, these VCs are not backing you. You you have to be really clear on your vision and absolutely believe everything that you say. And that can again, hold you back later on in your organisation. So you need to let go of being right or being the smartest person in the room.

That's not what you're there for. That got you to a certain point in your career, but you have to let go of being right. And what I mean by that is understanding there are smarter people than you who've got better ideas, who are more experienced in marketing, in tech, in sales and whatever. And that's not the sign of a good leader is having great ideas and imagination. It's about seeing that in other people and realizing you're not there. So number two is letting go of being right. And then number three related to that is asking questions.

more than giving answers. So if you're in a meeting and you're constantly telling people what to do, or what they should do, or people are asking you for that, that's again a dangerous sign in terms of your organisation not growing because you're becoming a bottleneck and you're the only source of inspiration of what's going on.

So the best leaders, again, ask more questions than they give answers. And those questions are very directed to nudge people in the right direction. So even if they know what the right answer is, they may not give it, but they may ask the right sorts of questions so that that person comes up with that answer themselves. So it's all about asking questions at that stage. And then really the next level as part of that is really defining your, people and how people see you.

MrJoe (27:02.722) outside of you being in the room. So this is really the culture that you're creating within an organization. So anybody can turn up and be amazing in a meeting or in a situation or in a pitch. The reality of the most...

gifted leaders is they don't have to be in the room for that stuff to happen. Their legacy or the way that they are is that they're almost sat in that room when they're not in that room. So everybody knows how that business operates. They know how to make decisions and choices based around that culture. So almost that CEO is always there, but they don't actually physically have to be there. They've got this almost legacy or ability to project what they want that organization to be. And everybody's extremely crisp and clear on what

they should be doing and how they should be doing it without that leader needing to be there again, because that can be a bottleneck. If your organisation is 10,000 people large, you can't be in every meeting making every decision. You have to be able to project that cultural greatness that comes from you into the whole organisation.

Desi (28:00.715) and give people this sense of stability and clarity, what is expected from them. Yeah, it's such an important point.

MrJoe (28:07.504) And what I find with a lot of the leaders who've really, you know, in those large organizations, they probably only say maybe 10 or 15 different things. And these things are extremely tight and crisp in the way that they talk about them. No, this year our North Star is X. This year we are focusing on these three things and only these three things.

You know, our mission in the world is to do this, this, this and this. Whenever you're making a decision, you need to look at these three things, right? These are typically the way that very experienced CEOs turn up and they've really almost got 10 things that they say. You could just have a robot recording this person because again, this has to be very tight, very crisp message for everybody.

So everybody knows what's going on and that's really a very small set of vocabulary that a CEO has and they're essentially saying the same thing again and again and again and that the way that they say it is extremely crisp.

Desi (29:01.411) Can you share an example of a successful CEO transformation you witnessed maybe from your experience without sharing names and positions of course?

MrJoe (29:12.506) can. Yes, I've worked with a CEO previously who had taken over from the founder. The founder had built the business up for 10 years. They promoted internally a CEO and number one, it's really difficult to come into a business as a leader when the shadow of the founder is already there. Okay, because again, the founders culture and the way the founder is to set the culture for the business.

And what was interesting is this CEO knew that things had to change, right? That that culture needed to change. They needed to move away from the old thing because the business hadn't stopped growing and stopped succeeding in the old way. And so he looked again at really what do we want the culture to be? What does it need to be like for this business to change? And looked at.

success and redefine what success meant in terms of the organization. Previously, they've been extremely successful because they'd had a great product, right? The product had been product-led growth for a long time. They realized that I'd hit a plateau and they had to shift into sales-led growth, right? They had to get people outreaching and working in terms of what they were doing. Instigated a partnership program. They really re-changed.

Not only the culture of how they did things and the way the decisions were made, it wasn't a product forced organisation. It was a commercially sales first organisation. had to completely shift how the organisation focused and made choices away from the old way to the new way. And that took time. But what was interesting is they were very intentional about making those moves. They very crisp about the way they made those messages. They were very...

and understood that there was going to be, and there always is with any change in strategy, you go on a J-curve, right? So things get worse before they get better. And he was very clear on that message. Things are gonna get a bit harder before they get better. We're gonna have to go through this period of pain and difficulty before things get better. We're gonna have to move some people around and change some focuses. If you're not on board with this new way of doing it, you're going to have to change.

MrJoe (31:03.664) They made dramatic changes into the C-suite as well, so people who are extremely culturally tied to the old ways of doing things, they moved those people on.

They hide people in from the outside, again, because typically what founders do is build people up from the inside. And that's great and get you to a certain point, but they move people in from the outside who have expertise in certain areas to take over at the C-suite. Yeah. And they are bucking the trend in their industry at the moment by over 30 % growth year on year in an industry that's extremely competitive at the moment. And they've done that by really effectively reinventing the organization.

And what was interesting, the way they did it was without going in and saying, I'm going to reinvent things. That's exactly what they've done. But they've done it slowly and very intentionally, knowing exactly where they need to get to rather than trying to do it overnight. Because what you find with many founders is they pivot. And what that means is a dramatic change very quickly. And what comes from a pivot is a bit of whiplash.

Desi (31:57.091) Yeah.

MrJoe (32:01.196) And that's fine when the organization's small, but when the organization's larger, that's a lot harder to do. And so it takes a very different set of leadership skills to slowly move an organization around to be something new. And this leader did that and has had incredible success from that.

Desi (32:15.809) Did they face a lot of pushback internally? Did they face any obstacles internally, lot of pushback from the team?

MrJoe (32:19.45) What was that sorry?

MrJoe (32:24.794) they did because the founder was still around and was still sitting on the board so they'd find that members of their C-suite were going behind their back to talk to the founder saying that this isn't right, this isn't working, we need to change this. I was always whispering in the ear of the founder and there was huge amounts of difficulty and change. You know, this is not the way we've done it for the last 10 years, why are we changing this? And especially with difficulties in and around the product world as well because you know, an organisation where the product is...

seen as being king and all decisions are around that and all investment is in that, to shift that away means there's a lot of people who've lost status within the organisation and shifting that focus away from product to the commercial side of the organisation, yeah, put a lot of people, upset a lot of people. But again, the CEO was very focused on why this was happening, why it needed to be done and didn't waver from that. You know, he's got a really strong...

constitution in terms of working through it. obviously when we talk, it's not like that. There's lots of doubts in his mind. And that's why I'm there to do is to be able to be that person that, you know, because again, it's quite a lonely position being a CEO.

you can't almost ask, you know, who can you ask for advice on stuff like, maybe you've got somebody trusted in your C-suite or you've got somebody who's a mentor that's there, but you still need that person to talk to saying, is this right? Am I doing this the right way? How can I make this better? And really what's been interesting is supporting that person on that journey is I've seen great change. And from the outside, you know, absolutely solid and super strong. I've seen the points of doubt and challenge in that person's way of managing.

From the outside they've seemed absolutely solid and very clear on what they're trying to do. So yeah, I've been so lucky to be on part as part of that journey, very, very fortunate.

Desi (34:07.299) They are very fulfilling it sounds. I suppose for people who come to work with you, it just requires a certain type of person, somebody who is ready to see their own mistakes, to reflect on what they're not doing right, to be ready for a change. Is there a type of person you would never work with?

MrJoe (34:31.792) I is. So, I mean, there's a lot of coaches out there. I'm not like most coaches. am quite... High flame is maybe the way to talk about it. I'm kind of like pouring rocket fall onto a fire. I am really pushing you forward. And I realised that most coaches aren't quite like that. They're a little bit more gentle than I am. And so the people that I work with are very much aware of their human side. They understand that they need to make some change in themselves, but they want that change to be quite dramatic.

Desi (34:50.573) Mm.

MrJoe (35:01.584) and they know it needs to be that way. And so working with me is quite a, it's an exhilarating experience compared to say a typical coach. And that's not for everybody, right? So if you're finding yourself struggling, you're approaching burnout, if you've got difficulty, I'm not the right person for you, right? I'm not that kind of person. I'm the person that's gonna push you through, I'm the person that's gonna support you through your next period of growth as a human being and as an organization. I'm not somebody who can kind of help.

you out of a difficulty right now, right? I'm all about growth and challenge and future. And that's not for everybody. So the people that I work best with are people who are like, you know, they've had great success, but they know they're absolutely capable of way more success. They just know that they've got to get a little bit out of their own way or make some changes within themselves to get there. Those are the people that I absolutely work best with.

Desi (35:56.259) Your career began in teaching. You were a primary school teacher, if I'm not wrong. Then you transitioned to tech strategy. You've even done user experience. I find this kind of diverse background super interesting. how did you discover that your calling is coaching top execs?

MrJoe (36:15.738) Yeah, for me, it did start with teaching. So like you say, I was an elementary school teacher. I love working with really young kids. I worked with sort of five and six year olds. And I really enjoyed that because what's amazing about five and six year olds is they are like sponges for knowledge. They're constantly changing and reinventing themselves and how they turn up. They are almost what every great leader should be, right? They've got this absolute ability to like, yeah, the world's so exciting. Come on, bring it on. And I loved that experience and that energy that they brought.

It's also how I got my name, Mr. Joe, because I was a teacher, so they always used to call me Mr. Joe. But then, I moved through user experience, which again was all about people. So I focused quite heavily on the research side. So I must have interviewed maybe, what, five, six, seven hundred users over my course of my career. And it was always approaching technology from a human angle. And again, I realized all technology problems are human problems. And tackling all problems from a human angle.

led me into the world of strategy, which again, similarly, all strategic challenges are human challenges at the end of the day, right? You want to launch a new product into a market. You've got to make sure that those humans at the other end of that are ready for it. You've got to make sure the humans that are building that are doing the right thing. It's all human challenges. Because way back when before the teaching, also I have a degree in neuroscience and a master's in human communication. So I've written a book on psychology. Psychology is really what drives me, the human aspect of everything. And the big thing I noticed throughout my career

is the best strategies are very human centric. The best initiatives are very human focused and understand the humans in all aspects of that. And really that led me into, obviously led me into coaching because I'm working with a human, you know, the other end of it. And I kind of joke that I save as many businesses, save as many marriages as I save businesses these days, is that I want the CEOs that I work with to be joyful, to be happy, to be...

loving every minute of what they do, like those six year olds that I used to teach, right? Really excited about getting up to work, really excited about spending time with their kids, really excited about their marriage and their spouse. You know, their life is really positive and flowing in the right direction. And so a lot of what I do is really unlocking the values and what is joy for that person and making sure that everything, every aspect of their life is joyful, right? They're building incredible businesses, but they're loving every second of that.

MrJoe (38:40.11) And that's definitely been something that's been throughout my career has been a definite factor within that. And that comes down to the enterprise CEOs that I work with, know, who are...

working for publicly, know, working for shareholders, big publicly listed businesses, and they are, have almost a lot, lost touch a little with that human side of who they are. They had these values when they were much younger. And I, lot of what I do now is reconnecting them with those values and still delivering value to the organisation in terms of cash money, which is how they're measured, but looking at everything upstream from what they do to make that more human centric.

Because the belief that I have is that if you're the humans you work with are really happy and joyful and working in the right direction, you're going to make money. Your organization will make money, right? Because you think about...

revenue, revenue is a lagging indicator of success. If you're successful, you will earn money. If you focus too much on earning money, that means your upstream choices are not very, good. So lot of what I do is reconnecting enterprise CEOs with their values, right? To be much more human, to be more joyful, to be more successful, but in a very human way, not in kind of spreadsheets or...

business in human kind of way, which is often a trap that many senior leaders, many CEOs can fall into of larger enterprise organizations.

Desi (40:01.812) super interesting connecting your leadership style and the decisions you make to the human side of everything. Do people open...

open to you when it comes to their personal life as well because I can't imagine you going through like very dramatic experience at home and then being a successful CEO. suppose part of the journey is to know when you have to slow down to get your home in order and then go back to your office and be the leader you want to be there.

MrJoe (40:32.058) Yeah, I mean, absolutely, it really is because, part of the way that I work with people is we don't just jump straight into coaching. We have at least one, if not two coaching conversations, which we call mutual fit conversations. So two deep coaching sessions where I don't charge for these, where we both.

decide if for both of us it's a hell yeah, right? It's a hell yeah from me as the coach, it's a hell yeah from you as the client. And a big part of that is we go into all aspects of your life, right? You've got to be really, really open to looking at all the challenges that you're facing and cross everything. Because you're right, you said it exactly right. If you're unhappy at home, in your marriage, you're not going to be able to turn up and be amazing at work. Equally, if you're putting too much effort into work and neglecting those that you love,

there's a level of guilt that that brings and an inevitable reckoning as to where that comes from. part of my journey, I was a founder myself for a startup in 2018 and we raised, we were raising about 1.2 in seed funding and I remember the funding was close and I just...

I was working extremely long hours. I was getting up at 5am doing the hustle, working all these hours. I had a young daughter at home. My wife was struggling. I remember my wife saying, look, she calls me Joey, Joey, this is not...

This is not the life that I want. I don't see you. And when I do see you, you're miserable because you're working really hard and putting all your effort into this startup and your consultancy business. know, I was talking on stages in front of 2000 people at the Barbican, seeming like I was on top of the world. And the reality was I was really, really unhappy because my, you know, my wife was like, look, she noticed this within me. In fact, my co-founder, Lisa, also noticed it with me. was like, what are you doing? And so I made the hard choice to walk away from that and reset my life because I needed to put my family first at that point. So my career had to...

MrJoe (42:27.342) be put second. And that was, it felt like a hard choice at the time, but absolutely it was the right choice. And so a big part of what I do with the leaders that I want is there's there's no space that is off limits for us, that you know, you need to be working and living the life that you want to be living, you need to be doing the things that you should be and need to be and have to be doing, as well as running an amazing business, right, you can't

I mean, always say you don't have to, being a startup founder, a brilliant CEO, doesn't have to come at the cost of being a mother or a spouse or anything like that. You can do both of those two things equally as well. You just have to be very intentional about how you do each of them. It doesn't have to be a choice between family life and work life. It doesn't have to be a balance. I call it a blend, right? It's a blend of these things. Because balance suggests something's always out of kilter. A blend is the nicest way to think about it. So.

Long answer, absolutely. You kind of have to be prepared to make changes in your personal life. It's always going to be for the better because you'll be a better leader if you're happier at home and you've got a happier marriage and you've got happier kids, you'll be a happier leader and vice versa as well.

Desi (43:38.207) Absolutely. You're writing your book on the Modern CEO in public. anybody who hasn't seen, go and check Joe's website mrjoe.uk slash modern CEO. I love the little videos and clips and your thoughts you put out there. What's been the most surprising feedback or insight you've received from your audience so far on kind of the views you share online?

MrJoe (44:05.572) Yeah, so the modern CEO book and calling it the modern CEO book is definitely a reaction to the old ways of management. for a long time, I've struggled with, and I think a lot of the CEOs that I've worked with have struggled with the received wisdom of how you should run a business. It's all command and control. You're in your office at the top of that tower block and everybody below you is your employee and you tell them what to do, right? There's a lot of outdated ways of running a business. So I wanted to update a lot of that. Almost as a reaction to lot of the...

MBA or Harvard Business Review articles of old.

And so I wanted to do that in the open and everything that I do, all of the content within the book is based upon all of the coaching that I do with the CEO. So all of the snippets that I release. So the way I'm writing the book is it's a series of, in essence, short snippets in helping you to create mindset and skillset shifts in yourself. everything is split into three parts and each part has maybe 10 skillset and mindset shifts for you. And if you go through this program of making these skillset and mindset shifts, you're going to be a better human being. You're going to be a better leader.

As I'm going, I've been sharing all of these mindset and skill set shifts as I've gone through. The biggest feedback that I've had is how even small changes to the way that you turn up based on even just one of these videos or one of these concepts could have a radical shift in the way that your organisation sees you, your leadership style and the results that you get, even just from something quite small. So a good example of one of these is I have a video called

close all open loops. So one of the biggest things and challenges I see of any CEO or any leader is they have too many open loops. And what that means is you have a meeting with somebody and say, yeah, are you going to be doing this thing? And they're like, yeah, I'll go and go do that thing. If you need any help, let me know. And the other person's like, yeah, of course I'll let you know. And that person never gets back to you. So you think, well, do they need help? Have they stalled? Are they doing the job? Are they doing the right thing? That loop has not been closed. And if you spot good leaders, they close all the loops.

Desi (46:01.603) Right.

MrJoe (46:05.68) So I'll say something to that person. If you need anything, how about any help from me? I want you to come to me by next Tuesday. In let's put next Tuesday in the diary at nine o'clock. You can come to me with any challenges that you need. That loop is closed until next Tuesday at nine o'clock when they come back and that loop's closed. Simple way of doing it. Open loop's gone. So I'm not worrying or thinking about that open loop as a leader. It's a closed loop. Even something as simple as closing all the loops in your leadership journey can be transformational for everybody around you. Because suddenly everything starts to get done.

Desi (46:35.083) Right.

MrJoe (46:36.368) It's a very, very simple hack, but one that's really transformational for the lot of leaders I work with. So one of the first things I do with a lot of the leaders I work with is help them close all the loops, right? Have a strategy for closing all the loops. And that's transformed many of the founder CEOs that I've worked with in the way that they work with their team. Suddenly stuff happens. know, people aren't hiding away from problems or challenges. Yeah, works forward, moves forward. So yeah, in sharing things and putting things out there, I get loads of feedback as to does this work? Doesn't this work? Is this valuable? Isn't this valuable? So by the time the book's out, everything will be...

Desi (46:53.069) Things are moving.

MrJoe (47:06.101) polished as it can be and as valuable as it needs to be for the modern CEO.

Desi (47:11.307) Interesting. You've worked with both startup CEOs and Fortune 100 leaders. Are there any universal truths about leadership that you've discovered that transcend company size, right? Something that's universal for any company leader.

MrJoe (47:29.156) Yeah, one of the universal things that I work on with all types of leaders is what I call, and it's concept I've used from a gentleman called Michael Neal, which is effortless success. And that's the idea of building success so it feels like it's easy. You're not having to put the energy in, you're not pushing a car uphill all day, you're not pushing the organization forward. And so one of the key concepts I work with all of my leaders is how could this be

effortless, how could this be easier? How could you make your life lighter? And that as a concept is universal across all all leaders, they all need that. Because what you find as a leader is you take on the responsibility. You hear leaders saying things, well, the buck stops with me, ultimately, it's my responsibility. They have all of these words to talk about why all the responsibilities on their shoulders. And if it's metaphorically, responsibilities always on their shoulders, they're going to feel like that, they're going to act like that, they're going to turn up like that.

It doesn't have to be like that. So in just asking the question, how could this feel easier? How could this feel effortless? Helps people think and shift their mindset away from like, this is hard, this requires effort, I've got to keep pushing to, actually this feels really nice. I'm just making little moves and changes here and nudging here and there. there's somethings out over there, I can do that. It suddenly feels easier and lighter. And a big gift that I give to the CEOs that I work with is a feeling of lightness in terms of everything that they do.

Desi (48:53.357) Amazing. So many practical insights today, Joe. Thank you so much for your time. And before I let you go, just my last question will be, let's look at 2030, for example. What skills or qualities do you believe will become essential for CEOs? Qualities that are commonly discussed today, something new, what is changing?

MrJoe (49:18.682) Yeah, think CEOs in 2030 will be, if I've done my job properly and if the world has moved in the way it needs to move, they'll be a lot more human in the way that they see things. They'll treat their organisation as a group of incredible, gifted humans rather than a set of resources or some lines in a spreadsheet.

is that they'll really unlock the ability of the humans within that organization to be the best that they can be. They'll have given AI all the boring, dull jobs and not given AI all the exciting ones. And the humans will be giving and doing all the work that they absolutely need to be doing to drive that business forward. And so understanding fundamentally for a business to be successful and to generate billions of dollars, the humans need to be.

happy and joyful and working in the same direction for the same reasons, the same mission and purpose that you have as a leader. If you instill that within your organization, you can do incredible things. If you try to command and control and coerce and align and all of those horrible words that a lot of leaders use these days, there's a huge amount of effort in there and you're going to wear yourself out and you're going to lose to the folks that are doing things in a human way.

Desi (50:26.399) your eyes guys. Where can people find you on wine job?

MrJoe (50:30.596) Yeah, the best place to find me is MrJoe.uk is my website. All my stuff's there. I've got lots of videos that I share and content. LinkedIn as well. Just search for Mr Joe Coach.

on LinkedIn and you'll find me. I share everything that's there as well. Equally YouTube, Mr. Joe Coach, again there as well. I share all of my insights there. I actually have a newsletter that's really good that I send out every week, so you don't have to keep up with that. You can find that at mrjo.uk. That's probably the best place to start, to sign up for the newsletter, because you get all of the stuff that I send out and you get that every two weeks.

Desi (51:02.135) Awesome, thank you so much. I'm gonna stop recording.

MrJoe (51:04.292) Thank you for your time, Desi.

e in six children in the UK have been identified as having a probable mental health problem? That’s five children in every classroom. This is a record high in human history that we’ve never experienced before. But why is it happening? Today I’m speaking with Jack Parsons and his co founder Leon mercy glia. The forces behind the UK swatches community for young people the youth group, since starting the company four years ago, young Jack is he’s often called, he has managed to grow their community to over 1.7 million young individuals, and connect 1000s of them with some of the best UK companies offering jobs upskilling and mentorship. Their exceptional achievements have been recognised by countless Awards and honours, one of which is Jack’s UK is kindness Leader Award by the Financial Times. When Leon came on board, they took the youth group to one of the top 25 startups in the UK. How did they achieve this? What are the biggest challenges in front of young people today? And what are the right opportunities worth exploring? Answers to these questions and many more in the next 60 minutes? Meet young Jack and Neil.

Welcome to the product show, insightful interviews with founders and tech leaders sharing how they hack product growth.

Jack Lyon, welcome to the podcast. It’s a pleasure to have you here. You are the people behind the youth group. The youth group is an organisation helping young people with employment upskilling, finding mentors and many more just creating opportunities for them. Tell me a little bit more about your company. Why does it exist? How are you making change in the world?

Jack Parsons

Absolutely. I’ll start with my point of view. And it might be completely different to what Leon says the youth group, because we’re always growing and changing daily, which is always important when you’re when you’re a small business trying to grow. So the youth group, we are a movement, we empower and inspire young people with tomorrow’s skills in today’s jobs. And how can you really empower young people to thrive, get into work, earn some money, become an entrepreneur, and really immerse them in understanding their first five years in the professional world. We are a community of 1.7 million young people, we’ve helped over 105,000 young people get into work in the last three years, we have over 25 million insights on our youth across the country, what they feel, what they don’t like, what they do, like what kind of jobs do they want to get into. And we employ 155 people across the group at the youth group to really help those young people to thrive. And we work with just shy of 1000 partners on a monthly basis. So lots going on. Not enough, I get up every day thinking what can we do more? How can we be better when we’re not perfect? No one is, but how can we be 1% better each day? So that’s my point of view in terms of who the youth group is. Leon?

Leon Marseglia

I think you explained that really? Well. Jack, I would add to that, as well as how do you our focus is how do you build the confidence and the resilience in young people? Because there’s one thing getting them an opportunity and helping them get that first job or connecting them with a mentor. But then they have their own battles around? Am I right for this role based imposter syndrome sets in? So it’s also overcoming those challenges for young people when it comes to their confidence, their resilience, but also the imposter syndrome that everyone gets? How do you deal with that imposter syndrome? They were the only bit sideout. I think, Jay, you explained that brilliantly.

Amazing. Tell me a little bit more about those early days when you discovered that we really need such an organisation what was missing?

So the youth group sprang from my personal background growing up in a counsellor stay, not having any career opportunities, I left school. I wasn’t the smartest person and I didn’t have much qualifications behind me. I tried to go to uni, but unfortunately, I failed. I didn’t get the qualifications to get into uni. So I was left there. What do I do? Where do I go? I had no role model. I call them role models, not role models, people around you who are doing real jobs in real lifetime that you can learn from. I had none of that around me. So and that really made me disconnected. It made me really sad in terms of who do I turn to who was there to mentor me. And so this this came from a personal challenge on one into I want to work young people want to get into work then I know us snowflakes, ladies See, and young people don’t want to work. Young people do want to work, if it’s something they’re passionate about. Now, I’m a realist, I understand that some young people, we have to get them into work and say, Come on, you stop being lazy, get up, stop being entitled, I get that I’m a realist. But at the end of the day, if a young person can find their passion, find something that motivates them, and earn some money while doing that, you will get a dedicated, hard working individual, yes, with some mistakes along the way, but they will be really ready to go. And that’s where it all started. For me. I had no career opportunities, I had no mentorship. What you see, what you can see is what you become. And to become something you have to go and see it, you have to go and learn it from experience. I had none of that around me. So for me, it was all about how can we create something that can actually help me mobilise my career journey, and that’s where youth group came from. It came from her it came from wanting to do something different, that actually supported people. The aim was only to ever help 100 young people that was the it was a small project 100 young people into work, and we’ll see where it goes from there. And we’re free years later, under and 5000 young people into work, and it’s starting to kind of snowball. Now.

Jack, your personal story is quite inspiring. You come from financially disadvantaged family, your mother battled alcoholism, when you were young, you had dyslexia, which weekly to support, make life even harder. And then despite all of that, you managed to achieve so much with the group and to become the man you are today. Tell me what was it we can younger chalk, that making us far more than, or the immediate circumstances offered. It’s really hard on young people who are in this situation, to find the motivation, the inspiration, even the models around them, to help them want more, what was it for you that help you

growing up I was never loved. And that does something to a young person and you feel lost and you feel lonely. And my upbringing I used to go home and I it was an uninspiring apartment flat that I lived in. Mum was an alcoholic. So she was only ever in free moves drunk fighting asleep. Those environments you do not want to be in no one does. Everyone wants to be in a positive, kind, uplifting environment that makes you thrive in whatever. Whatever you want to do in life, that that environment did not make me want to thrive. It wanted me not to be in this world anymore. And it made me really really demotivated. And when you’re in that, it’s like a saying you’re in a boat and the boat is sinking, you can see water coming into this boat, you want to either fix the boat or get out the boat as quickly as you can, is it’s better to get out the boat. So the boat doesn’t sink in the sea than it is to be in the boat. So I had two choices, try and fix the boat, or get out the boat. And the boat, I just didn’t know how to fix so I had to get out of it. And that makes you become a swimmer. And when you become a swimmer and in life challenges hit you and things hit you that you don’t imagine whatever hit you before. And you find a way. And that is what I did, I found a way to be positive to realise that no one’s going to come and save you Jack. If you’re going to get to the ocean, you’re gonna get to the shore and you’re going to really make sure that you’re going to survive and not sink, you’re going to have to learn skills, you’re going to have to do the jobs that no one is going to do. So I started my first job I went to pound 50 an hour. But I was so proud to be in that organisation turn up on my first day and and say that I had a job than not having it was a outbound calling centre call centre. And I was it was my job to call random numbers, considering I was really shy growing up random numbers and ask them if they had a car. And if they had a car, then ask them what they wanted to cheap quote insurance and then transfer it over to another table, which they called the big boys table who would then quote the policies for those individuals. So that was my job. For the first six months, random numbers. We had a target of 1200 200 calls as much as we can get to 200 calls as quick as we can add to hit your milestone. Did I really know what I was doing? No. But did I turn up to every day? Absolutely. I think when you’re an entrepreneur or when you’re growing your business or when you’re building your product, you have to show up every day.

Absolutely. That this brings Baoli on what was your upbringing like who are you as a kid?

Absolutely. So i i I grew up outside of London. So didn’t ever come into London until really late. And grown up out of London and in a city named one of the worst places to live in the UK for young people, there wasn’t a lot of opportunity or motivation, and didn’t really enjoy school. I knew when I was growing up, I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur didn’t really know what being an entrepreneur meant, but knew I do I want it to be one, I wanted to be my own boss, I wanted to create a meaningful impact on the world and create a difference in society. But I had no idea what that was. And so Chris, free school, finally left. And I decided to start my own business, I had no idea what I was doing. I just gave it a go. Because the opportunities in terms of careers around me, there wasn’t anything that excited me, there wasn’t anything where I could see a clear path. And I just knew that if I did my own thing, I could create my own path and figure it out. Yes, I’m gonna get it wrong 100 times, but only to get it right once. And so my first venture was a an app. And this app was called Tap to clap. And basically what it was, it was an app built, when the NHS for the UK during COVID. When they were when we did the it was 8pm. Every Friday, I think it was everyone went outside to clap for the NHS. And I said this is really cool. We can you can see everyone doing it across the country. But how can we see what the impact is overall? So I said, I’m gonna build an app where you go one, and 8pm, press a button, and you tap the clap. And we can see how many people across the whole of the country have collapsed, what areas clap the most, and kind of make it a bit of a game, but also show that, you know, we’re supporting the NHS. Now, my first challenge with that was I had no idea how to build an app. I had no product experience, didn’t know any programming. And I was like, I have no idea how to do this. I think my superpower and I think everyone has a superpower, my superpower was, if I want to do something, I’ll find a way, I’ll figure out a way of doing it. I went online, I found some guy was doing some volunteering work. And he helped me build this app. And we turned it around really quick. And it didn’t do amazing. It didn’t go global or anything. But was my first kind of idea that I made into reality, and actually got users on there, we made a difference. And I learned a lot from that. I didn’t sell it or anything. It was just kind of a fun venture that I started didn’t really know how to how to sell it at the time. And that was my kind of first instinct and first part of experience into business. Then later on, I said, Okay, that’s something cool. That was fun. But now I need to do something that’s going to help me sustain money because you know, I’m going to be moving out soon I need to make a living. And I don’t know what job I want to get into. So let me go for another business. That was a video marketing agency, started from my bedroom, again, had no idea what I was doing, but just gave it a go. I managed to figure out how to set up a company on Companies House, I think at the time, it cost me 14 Quit, and which was a lot of money at the time, but definitely worth the investment now. And I grew that agency to a few freelancers. And we had a fruit few clients. But it wasn’t social good. It wasn’t giving back. Like the tap to clap was, it wasn’t kind of doing good. And I want to do something that was doing good. I was I felt really lost, didn’t have a network, no mentors around me to give me some advice on what I could do. My mum and dad are brilliant mums, a social worker, but no one really entrepreneurial in my network. So I went online, I went searching. And I found Jack Young Jack, also known as UK chief officer. And I thought, wow, this guy is doing some really inspiring work for young people. I just fell in love with the idea straightaway. So I reached out said Jack, you don’t know me, but I love what you’re doing. Can I come shadow you for the day. And I did that shadow or come to London for the first time realise as a restaurant named after me called Leon. And I realised the lack of opportunity outside of London. There’s a lot of opportunity in London. But where I grew up, there wasn’t so that kind of opened my eyes to the opportunities within London, which was really interesting. And that day, I said, I want to work with you, Jack, I want I don’t know how but I want to work with you. And we ended up him actually acquiring my marketing agency and bringing it into youth group. And me joining youth group as the Chief Operating Officer.

From your stories and the stories of many other successful people I’ve heard, including people coming to your podcast is that one of the most important life skills for young people to build as soon as possible is resilience. For me, this entails being comfortable with rejection, and being adaptable to change. when life throws a punch, you get up and you continue. My observation is that that young people tend to complain and grumble a bit more. We used to be tougher. When I was in high school. I had a history teacher, which once told me in front of the whole class that I would never make Eternal life beyond the selling keenest market. He was absolutely devastating. So humiliating. I still remember this story. And it happened. She wasn’t dismissed. I didn’t have a social media platform going complain and find my support circle there. And I just got to press on continue studying next year, I got into one of the best university in the country, I was really bad. And what I’m trying to say is that, not that we have to normalise, abuse, or tolerate idiots, but the fact is, the world is full of idiots. And we just have to build this kind of thick skin as early as possible, and just be comfortable with rejection. I even think that this lack of resilience is probably fueling the mental health crisis we find ourselves in the moment. Do you agree with this point of view? Or do you think that probably, the opinion I just expressed is part of the problem.

So my point of view on resilience, anxiety, stress, I talk about mental health a lot online. And the UK is, we’re in a huge mental health crisis when it comes to young people right now. And I just believe that young people, young people create in a picture that’s not real. And they’re painting their pictures on someone else’s front in someone else’s canvas. And I just believe that life takes you in all different directions, we have to create more alien moments in our lives. And we can’t be boxed. I’m writing a book at the moment. And one of the chapters is Jack in the Box. But where’s my box. And in school, like that teacher, they like to box you in, because that’s all they know. And when you’re boxed in, and you fall over in that box, you get anxiety, your resilience, confidence is at an all time low across the country at the moment because of walls and everything that’s going on cost of living. And young people are getting their selves trapped in their own minds, when it comes to what’s real, what’s not, what don’t, don’t look at someone else’s success or roadmap and decide that your roadmap is wrong, or your roadmap is is not going to succeed based on someone else’s. I just believe that this is the world would come in. And the reason why that is, is because we’ve got the world of social media, and we paint a perfect picture. Nothing’s perfect glow. I’ve turned up to this call today. With that my air being done. I’ve not had a shave. And sometimes you don’t, I’m not going on any stage this week. You know what, I’ve got no podcast, I’ve got this one. But I’ve not got no guests coming over to with me this week. So sometimes you just have to have downtimes. And you just have to realise that you know what, we’re all human at the end of the day. And we’re not going to have everything figured out. But it’s really important in life to become useful. And that’s the only goal that people should have is to become useful to their family become useful to their neighbourhood become useful in their job and become useful to what they want to achieve in life. We all try and create a map of this success when actually no one has it figured out. That’s one thing I notice on all these guests that come on my podcast from the Prime Minister to to a CEO runs a 50 billion pound company is that everyone’s just trying to figure it out. And you really get to see who is with and who is deaf, and just focus on your own debt.

Right? You mentioned social media, I honestly feel that a huge part of the problem is social media. The FOMO young people experienced the costume comparison, as they say, pairing your outside with people sit inside, what’s being done, like are there any projects? Or are there kind of any successful companies or maybe influencers that you can go shopping? Can people see what the truth is? This is not the reality, you have to wake up and stop comparing yourself and let yourself roll and write your own path.

The this is really inspiring podcasts that really helps showcase no failures. I think one thing social media doesn’t show is the failures. And that’s the most important part around any success is the failures because failure is not fatal. It’s part of the journey. And you talk about rejection, use that failure not as a Objection, but as a redirection to the next opportunity that is about opportunity. And part of those philosophies, and those thinkings is my duvet flip. That’s the podcast where we’re getting leaders on their real models. They’re not celebrities, they’re not influencers, they’re real leaders that are that I’ve had experiences, we’ve got this guest coming up soon. She’s moving. She’s been made redundant five times in her career. And so one of the topics will be around, how do you how do you deal with redundancy, the challenges of that, while also being a single mother, and also recently recovering from, from cancer as well. So I think social media needs to really showcase failures, not to say, Oh, look at this person, it failed. We need to champion the failures, because that’s where you learn the most, if you if you go through your life, winning and never failing, when you do have that failure, that’s when your your resilience, your comfort, your confidence muscles have not been built enough, built strong enough to handle it. So my dear flip is, and I’m being cheeky saying that because JAXA hosts his show, but I think it’s such a good way for young people and even business leaders, CEOs watch it and government officials watch it to hear from these levers around confidence, resilience and failure as well.

And I would add in that, that woman that Leon’s talking about, she’s also a chief of she’s Chief Brand Officer for a massive organisation. So she’s she’s done it, she’s been there. Don’t don’t measure your value by someone else’s tape. Is the is the success here is we we measure our values on someone else’s tape and how long their tape is on what they believe successes. We you in the moment and lots social media can be good people get jobs from the economy, in terms of the social media economy has created 1000s of jobs, is their organization’s support in with whether it’s bullying or whether it’s a RASSMAN. Absolutely, and these organisations are great. I just believe that the if we really want to change the social media landscape, we have to change, home. Change starts at home. Look, Facebook is not going to go and do something that’s not in their favour. And their favour is money. Let’s just be blunt. Yeah, Money makes the world go round. And if it doesn’t make the organisation more money, are they going to do it? Are government going to really put a policy in place that really strips these organisations of certain things? No, because that’s how governments promote that what they’re doing on social media. So we’re gonna we’re in a circle. So we’re in, we’re already in the tank. So the plan is, you’re in the tank, it’s got sharks, it got he’s got fishes, and it’s called the Social Media tank. The plan is, is to survive as long as you can in that social media tank. You just can’t get away from it. Now, some people say, Okay, I don’t do social media at all. I respect those people. But not doing social media all is not for everyone. It’s how we communicate with people across the world is how you build your brand. It’s how you’re I never wanted to be a podcast host. I never wanted to do it. I said five episodes, and that would be here. And once I’ve done five episodes, I would never do a podcast again. In terms of my own show. It’s we’re now on season three, we’ve had over nine 9.2 million views on it. We have 55,000 you’ve tuned in every episode is become I’m in the tank. And now it’s like okay, I bet a few fishes and I’ve I’ve sworn away from the shark fishes is how do I now stay in that tank and stay relevant and that’s the cycle you’re in, unfortunately. So you either completely out the tank or you’re in the tank. I don’t think you can do both

is a millennial in my mid 30s. I sometimes look at my son who’s seven year old, even like teenagers and people in their 20s. And I think to myself, oh my god, the fourth generation, they had an abundance of opportunities in front of them. It’s never been easier to start a business to learn a new skill. Everything is out there. It’s free. I was amazed when I saw a 13 year old boy Chris having an interview with shoot and Jack on his own podcast and he was absolutely smashing it. When I was searching, I was reading the news in my bedroom to an imaginary audience and like studying to get into university because that was John proceeds way to gain knowledge and to become successful. You know why? It almost feels like having this pictorial of opportunities in front of you is a bit overwhelming and confusing for young people. It’s a little bit like sheep Trouble in product design, where you offer too many options in front of the user, they be consistently taken longer to reach a decision. What can we do to help young people not to overwhelm to find their path and what they’re passionate about?

Yeah, absolutely. I think you’re absolutely right. There’s a, there’s so many different, there’s a million ways to make a million pounds. And not that everyone is focused on making and becoming a millionaire. But also just understanding that there’s so many different avenues you can go down. And absolutely, it is really overwhelming. What’s the right way of doing it? What ways are going to be easier? How do I know this way is going to be better for me, all these questions that young people are thinking about, it can be really overwhelming, and they end up doing nothing about it. And so from my own experience, I tried loads of different things only mentioned those two projects and businesses that I created. But there was loads of other things I tried in the background I tried to do invest in on the stock market that didn’t work didn’t enjoy it, there’s loads of different things I did. But the one thing I did do is I set the start line, not the deadline, I shortlisted five things, and I just gave it a go. And it’s better to start. Now. Understand, if you don’t like it, you can cross it off the list. And rather than go, Okay, there’s all these different things I do want to do. Just find one, focus on one, invest time in that invest energy. If you’re not enjoying it, then cut it straightaway. And then at least you know, that’s something I don’t want to do. Because it’s equally as important to find out what you don’t like doing as much as you do like doing. And eventually you’ll be able to narrow it down, and opportunities come out come up. Because of that as well. Opportunities tend to dance with those already on the dance floor. So if you’re on the dance floor, and you’re going through an opportunity in whatever avenue you want to go down, that might lead to something else that you are passionate about. Or it might lead to a connection or to a mentor or to a job. So my advice would be, don’t focus on the deadline, focus on the start line. And just start that one thing. You might have three ideas right now that you want to get involved, pick one out of a hat and go I’m gonna commit the next three weeks to learn as much as I can about this. After three weeks, if you’re thinking this isn’t this isn’t my duvet flip. I’m not getting excited about this, cross it off the list. Move on to the next.

Yeah, I would add to Leon’s I totally agree with him in terms of startline not deadline. But also being bored is not bad. People say Oh, I’m bored. Okay, we will get bored. No, I’ve been bored three times. Today, I had to do emails and certain things. And I’m dyslexic. And I find it really difficult to write emails. But I love what I do. And I love the movement. So being bored is not bad. I would also add every role no matter who you are. Whether you’re a singer, like Ed Sheeran, or whether you’re, you’re sweeping the streets, for the local council, every job has cheers and chores. And you just have to make sure that your cheers overweigh your chores. So every morning when I wake up, and I have a team, I have a team that support me in my CEOs office and I go right, what are the what are the chairs that I’ve got to do today? What are the chairs that are going to get me excited like today, this podcast was a cheer for me I get to speak to you gets to share some knowledge and have some fun. And then I’m like, Okay, I’ve got some chores, I’ve got to look at a legal document, I’ve got to catch up with finance. I don’t like finance, but money makes the world go round. And we have to make sure that the money’s making sense that we can pay everyone. So in every role, once you’ve set the start line, not the deadline, and you tried something, start thinking to yourself, and reflecting what are the chairs here, and what the chores. And even if you add one more chair than the chore. So if you had a list of 10, and there were six chairs, and four chores, for success. So in every role, to get young people to pick their opportunities, is to understand that doing something if you get a bit bored, that’s happy we were bored part of our jobs. But look out for those cheers.

I’m glad you said that our meeting later on today is not a chore. And just add as well on that. I totally agree it’s fine. Those chairs and chores. It’s finding out what your brain loves. What does your brain really love? And a chair for me might be a chore for Jack. So understanding that just because something might be a chore for someone else you might go Oh, actually, I really enjoy that. I really enjoy working on that. And whereas others won’t. So also understand what does your brain love? And that’s going to help you then define what Jack said around what are the chairs and what the chores and what you’re working on.

Happiness is your metric. Yeah, absolutely. Also what’s really important is job honesty. Making sure you have job honesty because we don’t judge a job by job description. A lot of them are just copied and pasted. But to really go into that job, give it a bit of time and really think to yourself, Am I happy, and there’s going to be parts of the jobs that you’re not happy in, that happiness should be your metric. Go and bed tired, not drained. If I go a bit tired, not drained every night, I know that I’ve had a good day, I know that I’ve moved forward. Because if you wake up drained, and you might wake up, everyone wakes up. And this is why the concept of my do they flip is that everyone should flip the duvet in the morning to do something, whatever that is, whatever interests you, whether that’s working, whether that’s going on all day, we get that fill in the morning, when we’re about to get on a plane and go on all day with our friends, and all your birthday, you get this sense of excitement in your belly. That is what I want people to have when they get to work. It’s easier said than done. I understand that, but find the chairs, not the chores.

Absolutely. And I like your point that you have to be realistic. I mean, there will be chores, you just get on with it, then you just do it. And you just have to weigh the pros and cons and make sure that you’re moving in the right direction. You meet with 1000s of young people a year. What is it that they need the most now in 2023.

Hope, skills and opportunity. And it comes in that older there’s a lack of hope right now. We’ve got wars, we’ve got cost of living. People are busy thought in their own fight. Where that that means that they can’t give their full self. I want to see more authentic people in the world. I don’t want to see things behind cameras edited down and I want people to be authentic. I want to show the real you I want to do you know what before this, I’ve had such a busy morning. And I had to eat like I had to only after my lunch so I could do this. But you know what? I’m fasting. So I’ve got my fast so I’ve got this to do. But you can’t you I’m a big believer, turn up no matter how fast your days moving. When your your days moving at pace, turn up with grace. And I believe everyone young person needs a turn up to their day with grace, turn up to the interviewing with grace, turn up to everything. So hope is really important. Without hope, what do we really have? When someone goes into play for football on the football team, you have hope that you’re gonna win. The goalie has hope the striker has hope. So we need to build that sense of hope. People who are watching that game who turn it up to I’m a West Ham fan turned up to Westham to the stadium. You do it because you build the hope that we’re going to win today. So it starts with hope. Next. Next, it’s the skill. Is there a lack of skill or is there a lack of will? Because I believe skill can be taught Yes, some people never gonna be dancers or singers or good at speaking and there’s introverted and extroverts I’m an extrovert. You know what, on the weekend I have my introverted days, I like to be an introvert, I like to not be bothered, I like to be on my own, I like to be all digital away. So is it a lack of skill or lack of will, because I believe you can train skill, but you have to train the skills that you believe will help you earn and thrive. No one thrives for free, unfortunately, in life, and to not fly for free, you have to have a skill set that will help you get paid for what you do help you get to the next stage. So really focus yourself on three skills that will really make it work for you. And then opportunity. It all boils down to opportunity. You just don’t know who you’re going to bump into who you’re going to speak to how you’re going to really immerse yourself in an opportunity. And I’m a big believer, if you’re always arrogant, you’re always wrong. So just humble yourself a bit. My mom was an alcoholic. But one thing I did take from her as Jack to is one mouth for a reason.

I would add as well. And I love that story as well, Jack when you share that I think it’s really inspiring. And I would add another thing that young people really need right now is navigation, because you get what you aim for. And young people right now they’re lacking in navigation they’re lacking on how to get from A to B. So if they’ve not got that navigation and not got the aim, they’re not going to get it and you are what you do. So one thing that young people really need right now is that navigation, how do they find out the right journey for them? Because everyone’s journey is unique, and how do they get the right support for each stage in the process? We have a community of 1.7 million young people aged 18 to 30 we They focus on age we focus on stage, what stage are they at right now? What support do they need in that moment? And how can we best support them to get to that next stage. And we do that across our community. So I think, as well as hope, skill and opportunity that Jack said, source of the navigation is how you navigate to the to that hope for that skill. And that opportunity.

And I will add to that comfort is the enemy of growth. It doesn’t matter how much growth and no one might see it as success. But just that one marginal 1%, doing something different, like for instance, I’m not trying to drink two litres of water a day without fail. I’ve stopped English breakfast tea, two years ago, and add about 15 cups a day, I’ve stopped that it’s made me feel better, all that milk in that tea, no good for you. Just little growth moments is really, really important. And you have to define what’s winning to you in that moment. Because what’s winning to someone else, you know, someone going on the football pitch. Being on that football pitch, even they lose the game is a one is a win. Because they’re on their own, they they’ve been chosen out the other out of the 11. They’re the one out of the other 10 on the pitch to me in turn on their team that to me, they’re a winner. So define what’s winning to you in that moment is really important in life.

We keep talking about the skills gap. What young people are currently being taught in universities and school is very different from what is expected from them when they start their first job. And with AI. Now, this gap will keep growing and what do you think? So who is going to offer this navigation that you mentioned Leon easy universities? Do they need to adapt their curriculum? Or shall we think of kind of more apprenticeship programmes where employers are helping young people to close this skills gap?

Great question. At the end of the day, young people are going to either start their own business or work for a business. So I feel that the decisions and we’re not the decisions, but the focus needs to be on employers to help because education is such a big machine. We’re trying to make a machine of a movement here at youth group, when it comes to opening opportunities for young people, helping companies connect with young people to try and change that machine is hard. So you need to build your own machine. I think companies and employers can do this really well. They know what they want in terms of talent. And people, they know what skills they need to learn, it’s just then helping them bridge the gap between what young people don’t have, and how you get them to a level where they have got the skill. That doesn’t mean the employer has to go the full way is meeting them halfway in the middle. Yes, young people need to get off at some, some, some young people need to get off the sofa and meet the employer halfway and have the curious curiosity to want to learn to want to grow. We have this this framework, whenever a young person joins our community, they must pass that ABCD criteria. We built this so that when we’re putting forward young people to employers, that young people that are ready to work, and they got the ability, and that’s a is for ability of into the sort of the attitude to that the attitude to work that other curious enough to they want to come in? Are they ready to give it a go? B is all around being ready? Do they have the right digital skills to come into the workplace? And if they don’t, then we support with that C is around curiosity? Do they ask questions? Do they? Are they someone who just gets given a bit of work and go yep, call and get on with it? Or do they ask questions about what what’s the purpose of this? Why are we doing this? How can I do this the best? And indeed, it’s all around the digital skills that we mentioned, how do you build young people’s digital skills? So when they go into the workplace, they understand how to use those platforms or software’s not learn the software’s but understand basic technology. So when they go in, they can pick it up quite quickly. So going back to your question, I think it starts with employers, because they’re going to be the ones that move quickest to actually make it happen. Not that it should be on them. But I think they just have to take bite the bite the bullet and helpless and do that. And then hopefully, that then inspires education reform, and all sorts that way. But I think going from education first is not realistic, because of the scale of the change. Unless you’ve got someone like Jack who I don’t he’s not mentioned this or anything. He hasn’t got plans to but I think Jack if you were running the country, I think you’d be able to change the education like that. It would work pretty good.

Well got a lot of change outside first. But talking about education look, Leon us in the room, I had the education secretary over my home, and they said you can’t hug the world. And my response was but we have to hug something. And young people need a hug right now. When it comes to skills. The only thing that doesn’t change is change. I understand Man, and I just think there needs to be some sustainability when it comes to policy. And we need some outside thinking when it comes to government. Look, I support the government. I’m, I’m pro government when it comes to some of the fantastic things they do for entrepreneur and business. But some of the things they do are so backwards that they need to just be scrap examples. And I understand scrap, I understand some things are harder to scrap just like that. For instance, employers right now are really struggling to spend their apprenticeship Levy. There’s this apprenticeship levy that companies have to attacks that they have to lie by if they’re if their wage bill is more than 3 million companies are really struggling to really spend their Levy. And that is really, really hurt in and hindering the opportunities when it comes to apprenticeships for young people to actually do these opportunities. Because companies are going oh, we can’t spend the levy. We can’t get the young people in because the apprenticeship levy is not kind of linking in with what we need. So no one gets help. So they end up putting everyone on an apprenticeship and those opportunities and then not given to young people in a meaningful way, even though I believe opportunities should be for everyone. So I think that’s one thing. Another thing is government do some really good things like the kickstart scheme, I believe that was brilliant. It was given loads and loads of opportunities to young people 250,000 opportunities were created. But only 122,000 opportunities were actually filled. Why? Because government over engineered it. It became too political as a someone’s idea. And the kickstart scheme had a face to it, where it had a face on it by Rishi Sunak, that it was delivered by the Department of workplace pensions. Now, they both got different agendas, you’d think the government would want to be aligned. But at the end of the day, politics is politics. So how can you build action, speed, action and speed will make you succeed? Under 25,000 123,000 opportunities did not get filled with people who needed jobs. I think that’s I think that’s so, so disappointing. And I think we need to chat start there, start doing more of the stuff that works. Don’t over engineer it, and bring business in where needed to make the boat go faster.

Right. So you meet with CEOs, employers, high level management, what are the top skills that employers need in 2023. And when I say top skills, I mainly mean hard skills, just because things like curiosity, and just being kind of genuinely enthusiastic, it’s not something you can necessarily teach. How about the excuse more code is missing at the moment that if somebody’s listening to this podcast, it might just spark an idea for them, maybe I should pursue a career in this field.

So from my perspective, the world is moving so quick technology. AI is obviously on every article. It’s all over Twitter. It’s something that everyone’s talking about. Now, for young people who are not tech savvy, or don’t know how to programme, they might be thinking, Oh, well, I can’t do it, I can’t get involved. But you can, I do not come from a techie background at all, my brother is the smart one, the intelligent one, I’m more than just I will try and figure it out as I go. And a few years ago, I come across something called no code. I don’t know if you’ve heard no code as you probably have. And that is such a powerful way for anyone. That mountain no matter how much experience you have with building applications or technologies, you can learn and build products, digital products, without having to code at all. And so I would encourage young people to learn about no code, build a fun little little app or project and just give it a go. Learning how to build a product doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be a product that’s that you sell or services, but the learnings you’ll get from building that product and that journey finding out okay, this is this is the limitation of no code. Well, how can I do work around what communities are out there that I can speak to you to learn more, and it’s a great way for someone to work on a physical projects. I’m someone who learns by doing rather than by theory, so if you’re someone who’s learned by doing as well, having a go at playing around with no code tools, if you just type no code, you’ll come up with loads of different different tools. I would say young people need to look at that because technology is not not going anywhere. And if got someone who’s got the technical believe, with computer science degrees or anything like that go the no code route, because most companies are going that way anyway with no code and AI. So I think, from my perspective on what’s worked well for me, if going through that no code journey, that’d be my my tip.

From my point of view, it would be two things. Time management is so important. And if you’re not five minutes early, you’re already late. in anything you do, literally, I believe the lack of understanding that young people have when it comes to time management, like in terms of you’re going to set a deadline for a project or a product, deliver it on time, like when we worked with Pony two years ago, every project was on time, there were structure that you could say, you’ve got something to do with that great account management there. But everything was on time. And then that builds trust. And then trust builds you to do the next thing. So time management and project management, knowing how to actually project manage something is really important. And then the other one is communication. The manner things I’ve seen gone wrong from tech teams, product teams, marketing teams, external exploit exploiters when they come in working with an agency, all because communication lacks, and I think you can’t be anything than over communicating, right? Because we’ve got so many things on our phones these days, young people lack how to communicate. So if they could get time management, communication, no code, and understanding the digital of the basics of digital transformation. I think they will be employable anywhere and everywhere.

Absolutely fantastic advice. I love what you said here for time management, it’s really usually a reflection of so many things, how organised a person is, how diligent they will be in their work, and so many other things this speaks to that. I honestly cannot undo the importance of a good time management. How do you think Gen Z differ from millennials and older generations? Do you have like any observations? Are they any different, or we just kind to probably like to over intellectualise, the topic at that there any special they’re probably just the same people just.

So one thing that comes to mind is trust, trust in technology, trust in people, I think younger people and Gen Z generation are more willing to trust organisations, platforms when they’re signing up. Now we have we have two sides of the community, we have young people who join our community. And then we have employers and mentors. Now, when we’re when they’re joining our platform, a mentor has to obviously share a bit of information about them. And that can be something where they are sometimes hesitant to share certain information, young people, they’ll just share everything. You don’t you haven’t asked for everything, but they will just share it all. They’re more willing to trust technology. And I think that gives them the edge in terms of when they’re looking to join an organisation or when they’re using on learning software’s online, they trust them more, they’re just more willing to give these technologies that goes I think that’s that’s the first thing. Jack, what would you add?

I totally agree in terms of that. The adoption to trust and adopting a new piece of technology or a product is a lot quicker than other generations. However, it is also a lot quicker to be counselled. And the Gen said generation will cancel will cancel or brand a product or solution or a person. If it doesn’t align with their values. If it doesn’t align with the climate change, you’re doing well, or it doesn’t have any noble cause towards it. And we’ve seen it recently with a number of brands online. Like for instance, a lot of people are cancelling wicks last week, because of certain stuff has happened. I obviously know the wick wicks bald over there. And it’s, it’s, it’s you have to be so careful because the we’ve got access to everything. And Jen said, generation will will make a decision a lot quicker, whether they want to be loyal, or disloyal to a brand based on what they’re doing for the community.

And it’s fantastic change I think we see coming in front of us probably kinds of rewriting of what we consider success. I love this topic that for us and I’ve discussed this with other guests on this podcast, but first millennials and older generation it’s always been about you In so many is kind of Jiong I don’t generally think that shows that you’re successful, is it, maybe there are other things that are the values that will keep kind of growing and taking place of this kind of material world, they tend to be living, of course not to believe we have to have like businesses running smoothly and profitable. But maybe there are other ways to define success.

So you can you can make money while doing good, as well as understanding. And I think young people do understand that they want to support a brand that’s making money, while creating good impact doing good things to the community supporting a cause that they care about, I think they’re more susceptible to If that changes, then they’ll change with it kind of thing.

And young people, Jen said they want to make money. But do they really? And this is question I’ve got, do they really understand what money is? And the lack of financial wellbeing, the lack of financial education in schools, and back it back, what I hear from the older generation is that this is money. This is a pan coin, you pay your rent, this is what taxes this is, right now, we are 1000s and 1000s of youth that don’t need don’t understand what national insurances, they don’t even have bank accounts when they come to us. And so I think there’s a lack of understanding on the good and bad side of money. Because I believe there is always good and bad side side of money in anything, you can do good with money, you can live, you can eat, but also money can buy back by bad things as well. So I just think that we need some more education around what money is the value of money? I think Jensen have got it put, you’re totally right. Jensen got it perfectly right when it comes to it’s not just about money. And it’s about other stuff. And it’s about how I feel when making sure we’re doing good for the climate and the planet. But I also think there’s also a lack of understanding what money actually means. And what that means in today’s world still, for that generation.

We’re still lacking any financial education in schools in secondaries, I think that should be illegal. We need to prepare young people, even if they don’t study economic security, how to work with kind of everyday expenses, as you mentioned, national insurance to pay the taxes. What is the tax system in the country? You’re not just like shocking. Why are we not educating people more when it comes to finance?

It is shocking. Liam, what’s your point of view on this? Because I’m very passionate about this. I believe banks have a role to play government have a role to play education. I think parents have a role to play. I think, I think we have a role to play. I think everyone has a role to play. But like, if you if you were to say, give me a money, influencer, you think of Martin Lewis, that is for the older generation. That’s all you think of who’s the young, but I think there’s a big space anyone listening out who wants an idea, there’s a big space for a money influencer, who is young, edgy, to come into the space, and just like demystify everything. What does pensions mean? How do I get a pension? What is insurance? Or what is the pension gap? I think there’s so much for an influencer to come in, or what they call a crater these days, it’s got gone past the influencer days. Now. The craters, there’s, there’s a room for a money career to come in, and really educate the next generation on what it means to manage your money, fry for your money, and look after your money and earn it earn money as well. You can’t look after your money if you don’t earn it.

And also understanding when you’ve earned the money, how do you best save it or invest it and spend it? And yes, absolutely you should spend when you get a bit of money because you’ve earned that bit of money, you should reward yourself but also understand don’t spend it all and understand, okay, when I’m spending this money, have I taken into account that I’m going to be paying for national insurance or that an attacker is going to come off before I get the final amount? So I totally agree with Jack there. We have a same around building your money powers. How can you build your money powers so that wherever you are, it’s a transferable skill doesn’t out what you’re doing. Have the money powers to be able to manage your money, invest it in the right way, understand how far that money needs to take you to your next bit of money as well because again, it’s that forward thinking that projection that forecasting and those just the skills around managing your money, it’s going to help you in the workplace, doing your own business when you if you’re if you’ve got a business and you’re starting your own business, you got to manage the bank even more focused on making sure you got enough to pay for software’s for your staff. Those How do you build the money powers of young people and grinding it in that way, because some of the I think, you know, financial literacy is I think it’s an old literacy is quite an older term. So branding in a way that’s more youthful, where the young people are going to engage a bit more speak the language and youth speak the terms and what young people are going to are using, because then you’re going to relate to them a lot more.

Money is not a dirty word. But in British culture, we see it as a dirty word a bit like a bit, a bit like British culture doesn’t embrace failure as much as America does. Or another country and other countries. And I believe money is not a dirty word. I think young people need salary clarity, when it comes to salary. I’m a big believer put that put the put how much you’re paying on a job description. And that could be a salary band. That’s okay. So your competitors don’t know, we know companies go I don’t want to put a salary on because it’s their competitors. We’ll see what I’m paying. We’ll have a salary band easy done. So I think there needs to be some salary clarity. I think we need to get over that money is a dirty word. There’s there’s a lot of shame around money when it in the in the workplace. Yeah, I’m not saying everyone put a pan sign in there and say this is how much I’m worth. But I think there needs to be more transparency when it comes to people and money. And we’ve not got time today for this podcast. But don’t get me started on women getting paid less than men. That’s a whole new thing that we could talk about.

You’ve got, you’ve got the right hospital. That’s awesome. So another topic, I wanted to kind of quickly touch base on with you guys, before I let you go is. So when I think of young people, first picture that comes to mind would be a young apprentice bustling in a busy woman office or in another major city. And I have been thinking recently that we kind of tend to overlook people who are from or who have chosen to live in more rural areas. And what can we do? Employers, maybe the government and as a whole society to make sure that opportunities are spread evenly, or at least to create more opportunities outside of bigger cities.

The there’s so many things that could be done. And again, I’m a big believer that focus on everything, you focus on nothing. So what’s the focus on that one thing? What’s that one thing that could help? The easiest one I can think of is around remote working. Now COVID has really transitioned that to be remote working. When I when I was growing up in my home, see, only look for opportunities in that city. But now you can look for opportunities in different city but still live there. So I think it’s understanding and explaining to young people that just because you live in one area, doesn’t mean you can go for jobs in other areas. That’s the that’s the quick win. That’s something that you can turn around quick asking employees to move all their jobs outside of London or elsewhere. That’s a longer longer challenge and bigger challenge to solve. One is around how can you maybe set the location of the job to different cities, because actually, it’s a remote role anyway, so it doesn’t matter where then you’re going to attract young people from different cities that they wouldn’t otherwise be looking for. I think that would be my my one there.

I would say there’s, there’s, there’s no such thing as a dream location. I know a lot of people look at London as the success but you can have success in Manchester, Newcastle, you can have success in Scotland, Wales everywhere. And I think you have to everything’s about compromise in life. Something that you get, there’s something you have to give. Now, you might say I want to stay local. And that means that might mean that there’s a less, less salary at the moment. And that’s obviously changing with the government’s level and up strategy. If people Hurry up, I like to make things move quick. But you know what? Ask these questions. Ask the questions. If you do see a role as advertised in London, and it’s something you really want be bold enough to message and put in your cover letter law. I do not live in London, I have no plans to come into London. But would you consider remote opportunity, if I could prove a b and c. And I think that’s what we need to be we need to be more bold, we see a job description and we go okay in London needs this level of experience. Yet again, don’t be defined by the boxes. My first job I did not get. They said I went to an assessment day. They said I didn’t have the skills or the degree, either an email into that company. And I said, I just want to say thank you so much for the opportunity for letting me come with my peers, learning about other people from all walks of life. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to present myself. I know I did not get this opportunity is three things that I’ve reflected on that I believe I will improve in the next time. Rand, thank you. They came back and said we would like you to come and meet our managing director within a week hired the job that started my career. A in the world of talent and recruitment, which has led me on to run in the youth group today. So sometimes don’t take no as the first answer. But there’s a very fine line between being bold. And then just being goddamn annoying. And you have to find the balance between because people do have busy lives. Don’t disrespect someone’s application process. But if you do need tweaks in it, be bold enough, in a graceful and kind way, I’m a big believer on kindness. On just asking the employer, would they reconsider? Or would they consider something else in a meaningful way? But if you do not get an opportunity, move forward. Don’t dwell on it. Don’t get upset. Yes, have a moment to mourn. And every one I’m a big believer in when someone’s mourning, give them a moment to mourn, whether it’s a job or a rejection. But like Leon said, rejection is redirection in everything in life, and that’s from trying to set up a bank account with one bank. If NatWest rejection, go to Barclays, there are Monzo there’s loads of digital banks now. So everything has a redirection to it. Don’t see it as rejection sit as redirection.

Amazing, good advice. It was an absolute pleasure having this chat with you guys. And I think the country needs more role models like you your songs operational, you’re so humble. You’re fun. You’re a pleasure to be around. So I really, thank you for your time today. But before I let you go, What sir in juvie flip. What’s the first thing you guys do in the morning? That gets you going? You don’t think you’re going to escape this question? Right?

You swung it right back to me. So my duvet flip changes all the time based on climate what I’ve got in my schedule. But one thing that doesn’t change is I want to wake up every morning, knowing I can have an impact on my own health, an impact on the community around me, and an impact on the planet and the world. They’re the three things I fry for every day. Did I did I become 1%? Better? In my health? I think health is everything. Yeah. So how can I be better in my health? Did I take do more steps? Secondly, is the community look after people? You know what, when you’re going into a shop, you know what, put yourself out there and wait for someone to come out the shop before you go in? Yeah, the rudeness of people just barging in, when someone’s trying to get out a smaller space, be considerate. smile at someone the thing of a smile. And I’m not saying go around smiling everyone and be careful who you smile at. Because if a young woman’s on their own, don’t go smiling at them just be pleasant. Yeah. But be kind in everything you do. Nothing is nothing is weird, or odd. It’s just different. You go into a coffee shop and you see someone serving you. They’re not lower than you. They’re actually really smart, because one of them might be just studying to become the next scientists that that creates the cure for the next cancer, or the pandemic. So be nice to everyone, and then do your pet bit to make the world a better place. And it all starts with one. Help someone reach out. Go back a nice, the man of emails that I see that people don’t address people with their first name. And they just go high. Always start the email with high and the person’s name like that. I mean, the interview starts as soon as you apply for the job. Absolutely. And that goes for all and that’s what we say is he doesn’t start when the interview starts. It starts as soon as you apply. But this podcast started as soon as you kindly said, Oh, we’d like you to come on. Show me the graceful and the team and how to make it easy for people make life easy. So I wake up with a do they flip with those three things.

Leon How about you?

God if I can top that one, that’s a really good movie flip. Buying. I’m I’ve said that for hours. I’m a curious person. I love learning. And every day I wake up, knowing that the more I learn, the more I realise, I don’t know. And that excites me because there’s so much more to learn. I like to have these curious conversations with people at least once a week a curious conversation where I’m not selling or buying from someone we’re just having a curious conversation to learn about them, their experience their journey, and you know, what can I take from that to then bring back to youth group and and bring that to our community of young people. So my mind Divi Philip is having his curious conversations to learn from the news that help more young people get into work

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